I cannot be owned by scientific method. You're six. Send him tall and. Creature that's been seen my many little life you know. And de Ferran good morning mining boom Herron online inning and news features and yeah me. He lying then yeah real mania apple is lying game. It also shape shifting mentioned you. My experience it's an experience. And I. Or else there's West Coast trying to spokesman Ian Stewart somewhere in between low and beyond really reviews myself Jason was always listened GD Johnson. To be here tonight we've got a great. Guests very interesting topic tonight we're going to be talking about cannibalism. With doctor bill shot staff in different topic. Yes it is and you know we often think of criminal types cannibalism activities and that's how we're renewed talk about it aren't we talking about a cannibalism as it exists in the in the animal kingdom but also as it exists in human history and you'd be surprised at how many instances of the sexually come up whether it's survival type cannibalism with the Donner party. Or at some medicinal cannibalism or it's ritualistic cannibalism and even things like. A Catholic mass swift. With. You know communion I mean it and don't nobody jumped in my throat here. But it's the body crisis the blood of Christ here is there's an element there to this and down you know this we're going to be talking about this in detail. With that doctor bill showed a little bit later in the program and his book is called cannibalism a perfectly natural history. It's it's going to be an inch tonight so make sure you tune in at you haven't yet head over to FaceBook dot com slash beyond reality radio only to FaceBook page for us. It had to beyond reality radio dot com week find all the stations we are across the country which were costly updating. Samie she checked in Austin which essentially attitude to New Orleans New Mexico and and so forth and or you can download free iPhone and you enter and operate their from the website which lies to listen live catch past shows join online chat more. Or score the listen live button and you commit to right online lesson right from from your computer while you don't GB myself and agree community people in an online chat. So speaking of communion and the Catholic religion I have to be Catholics of full disclosure here but to did you hear this controversy going on with Pope Francis. Now he it was quoted and actually that's that's the wrong word he wasn't quoted he was reported as saying in an interview and Easter. Known as Easter approaches here interview. That there is no help which is a 2000. Year old tenant of the of the Catholic religion that there is a hell. The Pope actually said come there is no hell. There is a disappearance of sinful soul so he says that those that don't repent don't go to hell. They disappear so courageous putts they're just. Gone well and that's always been a big consider it far I've always been under the belief that. Hell is you know spare fire brimstone McDowell it's more of a place you manifest yourself well worry whether that's true or not I don't know but for the Catholic Church for the head of the Catholic Church the poll. To make this statement is actually. Of a revolutionary statement and in religious terms. And the Vatican has released a statement about this this was done an interview with the with a gentleman by the name of you geno skull safari obviously an Italian reporter. And asked after the Vatican saw this report they actually released a statement saying that sound you have to look at the article carefully carefully there are no quotes. So when they're saying when this reporter is telling us what the Pope said he doesn't quote him. And he says the actual text of this interview. After the translation was miss translated so looks like they're gonna follow this up with another with another statement to kind of clarify some may be. They didn't quite contradict maybe they didn't quite change history here I don't know but probably looking died down the road to CU what. What they say because our definition of hell as we know it comes from comes from the Catholic definition and in a weather exists or not I don't know but descent. And that's thing Catholic definition of its started now while. Knows when it means in in the beginning. When and that's Genesis well yeah and I'm an article that aren't back it up let's first words like as an advocate in the Tahoe Nevada now I mean hell became this really terrifying place actually back him more and more days if you think about it. Is too as they started trying to use it to get people to follow certain codes and I don't. And we can get to a whole different thing here. Yeah I know I was entry and open a religious content is discussion I just wanted to report that the Pope has said wells reported to have said this which if if it. Anything like this is true and events on them being it's going to be a very. Distinct and deliberate departure from Catholic doctrine over the course of last 2000 years so be interesting to watch it now. Another topic we had to nick Redford on the program couple weeks ago that your Annie B he had just recently written a book about slender man. I finally got around to watching. The IM slender man documentarian on HBO and it was primarily about the two girls. That lured a friend into the woods and stabbed her nineteen times it was their story wasn't so much the slender man story is more about the girls and how. They were drawn into this story of slender man and how they believed it to be true. And how they believed they were being spoken to two telepathically by slender man and that they were being. Instructed to do this. Really OK so it lines I mean they have they have a slender man actual moon full movie coming out sometime this year I believe. But just and I think he should probably means shows something different and HBO if there's it was a really well slender. Well immediately yeah I don't know own saying is that it was about the about these corals and what they believed in it in new went and booked through each of them in their young girls or thirteen years old when this crime was committed in. If anybody hasn't followed the case. They tried to petition the court to be able to be tried in juvenile. Court instead of adult court and they were denied that and last and you date. They're still going to be tried as adults which is far more serious the trial situation and the consequences are far more serious but. On this very interest in Henry to chance to watch and I'd recommend paper currency directness to check I think it's a little long. I mean I think he'd make it could have been about a half hour or shorter than it was almost two hours long. But it was definitely interest me. All right so yeah we're gonna it's gonna be definitely an instinct on what I think before we go to break one more thing I wanna do little contest here tonight can. We are going to give away a measurable tumor anyway so while woman who will give way to assure a teacher. Teacher would guide taps permanent teacher it's going to wait Temps permanent teacher. Two somebody who when we open up the phone lines for this don't try to do it ahead of time can. Tell us what the common thread is through the bumper music tonight. Policy puts an effort to put little into it via contract I think it's going to be pretty obvious this the first timer doing this I made it kinda easy. RS but don't call before we start asking for those call. It's yes okay. Eric Jerome went on and at that exemption and just you were on the night for everybody who ruined forever. There are just say you know the numbers 844687766. And again until freed 844. 687766. Timer and take quick break and get our guest doctor bill shoot on the phone. You listen to Jason GBM you know. Beyond reality radio friends this is JV and I'm telling you need to go check outs Garrick con dot com it's the website for the event coming up in June in New England in fact it's in Framingham Massachusetts. And sit fan convention that features paranormal. Horror scifi celebrity guests plus panel discussions film premieres and screenings parties and a whole lot more a lot of fan interaction collectibles great Sanders a lot of great stuff. It's being held June 6 and seventeen been Framingham Massachusetts all the details are being put up once Garrick conned. Dot com check it out. Jason Hawes JB Johnson take telephone number will be taking calls later in the program and 8446877669. Tonight we're going to be talking about cannibalism. According to our guest doctor bill shut it's not as. Rare and it's not as odd org gruesome as some people might think you mean when I think of cannibalism I think of you know the movies where they've got these so damages in the jungles and of the cannibals are gonna go ahead hundreds whatever they're called and you know obviously feared them bomb but there's a lot of other. Angles to this whole topic let's bring her guest in doctor bill shut. Doctor bill shut as an author of his website has built shut its tests CH UTT dot com and the book we're talking about tonight is cannibalism. It perfectly natural history bill welcome the program Greek debt beyond. Are you there bill. Not okay well tee to those that owners got a little tax cut a hole the Olympics. I don't wanna don't know enough to affect its. But ours so but it's going to be hidden inching topic tonight and I just wanna stressed the fact everybody out there that we're not gonna be talking about Aaron like Jeffrey Dahmer the whole criminal criminal type Campbell zombies that something totally different. And I do I just want that known to everybody else that are BI knew in the chat rooms and talking about to. They're talking about Tom thumb assembly council lamps pilots of one source council Antonia. Yet that the gasoline there's an interest in and so. Who knows but oil slick we've got. Now let's see bill you this high art OK good we were worried something assuming that all the and then went off into the jungle or something yeah. Well welcome to the show we've got to this is the kind of a short segment we're gonna play anytime you're go to learn little about you tell us about yourself. Our outlook failed as a wallet just and not. Teacher at long island university. And the climate research associate at the American Museum of Natural History. And I started out and so if my Ph.D. it was studying vampire bats and that sort of let me into. Look nobody was really surprised a little isn't it kind of weird animal. And that let me into a bunch of papers but I wrote a couple of book chapters and the opportunity to write a book about what feeding creatures and I found a neat niche that was somewhere between. On but there's a lot of sensational stuff so upset and thought and an act on the that was the Apollo of that and endorse an academic books and there was really nothing in the middle sort tried to. Use mine if you know that in our I've enjoyed being an educator and use that to bomb. Particular books that that sort of met in the middle and and people could read without being bludgeoned by. Oh a lot of scientific terminology. And that and I guess cannibalism listen this is a sort of a natural follow up to two and a book about what feeding creatures which was up but first booked our banquet. Yet and I'm hoping we're gonna get a chance to talk about that book was well a little bit tonight some very very curious but. I need to look at the topics. Cannibalism and talk a lot about that tonight. Blood feeding creatures and try to talk about that some tonight. Aren't you know what we're should mind going here I mean these are in these are very interesting topics to me. Well horror movie fan I am paranormal. Researcher enthusiasts fan. C hero of I mean all of our ports and into the into power and gum and I think there's a connect there somewhere but. Skeptical when that bird like ticket to the women demystified things that people are are just does a lot of misconceptions about. About cannibalism and and I was surprised by a by a lot of that myself you know. And so that's but that's not broke really what I studied. Home but it seemed like the next kind of cool topic. Follow up to damp terrorism and down. And that's and that is that it's extremely widespread throughout the animal kingdom which a source jumped all over that being of vertebrate zoologist. And then started to look at stories in the I'll let you hit it you know human cannibalism wife of what that Donna party actually tribal everything's been written about a dollar party that's ever gonna be written but I found out that there was just so much more stuff that didn't you know new material and researchers looking at. At these some at these incidents were using new technology and coming up with different ideas and you know I was up there without historical human remains detecting dogs and Rupert. We're looking for. That it in front of the places that congress had actually been buried and now where they've been taking tourists for the last hundred years. Well were I can't wait to have that conversations welcomes the Donner party story is fascinating fascinating me. But I sure to a recent you're you're as a wallet just isn't true yeah your profession is. And the ten year view teaching university. Yeah I teacher had out LA post out of London looked sure of war silence like teach human anatomy and physiology at teach comparative anatomy. Evolution refugees dinosaur of course. But dumb but I but I do motorists are urged the museum of natural history and I've been there since I was. A graduate student at Cornell in the early nineties they just kind of stayed after Iraq. And George graduated and became a post stock there then that research associate for about the last ten years. Got a call I mean it has to go in there and whoever wants. Got a bunch of friends there that are a lot of something analysts. The best young author of god yeah I'm really lucky but believe me it. The really. Where we've got about a minute left in this segment sort of wanna get into any of these details and too much any but one thing I did notice is that I'm on the cover of the book. The word jolly is written there yeah and I've got a surprising word about cannibalism. I thought the same thing you know Tom. So when the reviews for the paperback can Matta was like you know I really loved the New York tolerance and at that they gave them on a wonderful review but. But I would like Charlie do we have to put you picked it and that's. Obviously my publisher thought that was a good place for you know I I'm I use humor where where appropriate time I'm not. You know I realize that that this is a subject pick me really touchy in the you know I'm not out they're both trying to get big yuck Arafat people's. On the topic of misery then that sense that a lot of people of undergone that. Related to cannibalism but but I try to take a light approach on and and so I think that's where that came from and do the same thing with. Would have been part booked this is not a textbook that assists no this is something that I think is that is that is just as entertaining incidents. On educational. And I think that that's the most important our product is its that it is educational and there's there's books out there event. They're really just didn't aggressiveness of this and you really yeah you don't really need that. No I don't you know that it was out there are ready and that you know what has senate is able to find that middle ground. And then you it's really easy to crank out a real sensationalized. Book but. You know at that and then on the other side does all the academic sucked so bad that only somebody who's an expert in this is going to be interest it and that sort of walked into the middle of that and and so and and up on and I look. Taking difficult topics so as a college professor. And turning them into something that all of my students understand not just the Smart ones like I want everyone to come along. Because I never had that when I was in I gotta admit when I was in college at. But just that I walked out of a lot of classrooms not knowing what was going on. That's what try to make it a point. To do that with my students and then. You know like I sent them accordingly you Senator Clinton. I'm really lucky that I'm able to sort of do this in the Communist you know in the bookstore right and not enough and I'm not trying to show wolf. My announcement of the terminology that I gained over the years so I'm I'm trying to explain things in the way that that people find interest staying in men and warned some stuff. Well I think that's important I think to doing that. Are right so we're gonna get ready we're gonna take a break in them Donald ton more questions for you so you'll listen Jason GD MB unreality radio will be back after this. Common theme that runs through it all and later in the program director now don't do it. And a little bit do it when we tell you we'll take calls and the first person I can tell us what that common thread is through. The modern music an able senator teacher we have some taps permanent teacher it's hanging around Malone semi now horse for it is Saturday and told me were theme this it's an area I have no idea. Well we've talked about doing this on occasion I liked like to try to do it somewhat regularly so we're starting easy tonight so limited I think this was going to be pretty obvious pretty quickly but anyway. Tonight we're talking with doctor bill shut about his book. It's about candle cannibalism is called cannibalism a perfectly natural history. His website is bill shut dot com you should check that out there's a whole bunch of information about him about his work and his several books all listed there. On tomorrow night as the best of programming need to be aware of that is every Friday night is. Monday we have Jason Hanson Hanson joining us he's a former CIA officer is security specialist. Any winner of ABC's hit reality series shark tank shark tank you weren't we talking about ways to achieve mental sharpness. To be ready for anything how do escaped its taking hostage. Setting up a perfect safe site like a safe room how to assume a fake identity this could be good for us to this this conversation this could be good for us on master the weapons of mass influence to recruit others. Bild report and make allies when you need them most seriously Bhavesh however. I think we're gonna walkways and it's a very anti information. After Monday night's program so makes you join if that was springer guess speck in doctor bill shut. Bill the book cannibalism a perfectly natural history. Before we get any where else in this discussion in this may sound like a very very basic question. Defined cannibalism for us. Pol let's say I guess. As simplest possible reactive consuming all or part of another in the individual of the same species it's got to be in the same species sources that cannibals. Or binary and enough despite her humanity another human. Right so that's the key there same species. Yeah and can be out. I mean you can. You can for the body and that. If you knew and some people consider establishing not cannibalism but I consider that at the same species it's terrible wasn't. Yeah I think that's how most people look at Israel's. Yeah that's a couple of people but I do find does that just don't think that under the new guidance from the government dealt with with dinosaur camp was in the like well you know what this. If there was a T Rex play in there why wouldn't he wrecks he did not like yeah that's cannibalism and then like now that's definitely. But it's tough you know there are some so there are some great areas. So let's talk about cannibalism in the animal world in nature I mean we all know about black widow spiders weave in her the story praying mantis is the Tulsa little bit about it and why it's significant. Well well what really blew me away it was that they that you know I went in thinking the same thing the first two critters that you think government are black widows and and I'm praying mantis hasn't come to find out that. The studies that have been done. That that became. You know you'd fundamental textbook you'd find in the store books all of that these creatures. They were situations where that group where where the animals restored in captivity and then they. They ate there. You know that need other individuals. But in reality both of those. In fact. Pretty much don't cannibalize some that it is sometimes it's not as much as you'd be led to believe but they were also have instances. Across the the animal kingdom work were cannibalism took place the reasons that had nothing to do if you ran out of food you know it was a reproductive strategy talks but say well line six over pride in this female that has have a cup. While that females not gonna come intercede in the end and be susceptible to took to mate. For several years so the mail killed accompanied sit and then the female of the contraceptive. And and there is to the same thing. Com there are that there are fish that is that late thousands and thousands of bags and they either have quite a few of them and you know that they're not really thinking of individuals is not like little where's Sally you know I was told me it's more like. We would consider Iraq a handful of reasons. And so so it just goes on and on that probably the neatest thing that I saw was I went out to the chart cal mountains and and saw how these they're they're these states put toads and they laid their they lay their eggs and in what's. Would decide to switch on the beleaguered men out there laying their eggs in ponds. And talk expectancies something you can do you know border ski on them and they're more like puddles. And in the environment that Troy environment those pot and draw it up really quickly now if you lay eggs in the end of the pond dries up before the eggs. Our patch go through vote tadpole stage and then crawl out on to land and everybody's dead. So what is involved it's a system where about them probably 50% of the use of their eggs that are related. But within a couple of days that they at Dick's broad Apple's explode inside. 23 times larger than than than it it you know their brood minutes of the exit. That that that had the same time and and those. I'll larger. Individuals just start eating the small ones and what's going on here is that byte by consuming. Some of the smaller than some other smaller arc can. They developed quicker they get out of the hole quicker or is that if you'll allow me out on a column and and so will. It almost guarantees that some of them are gonna survive. A worse and worse if that didn't happen. And upon tries to help in the old daughter so that's a type of thing about the site count and and they were just. Dozens of instances like that where there was all the truly kind of neat stuff going on that I just said no clue. Or sometimes they do it especially when it comes out of toads and frogs precept upon that we adult. Narrative and our old house we had frogs in there and we we catch up from one another pond were younger and we knew we'd put amend their. And did get these big frogs that they weren't hungry but they grab the smaller ones in just just heat them now yeah that that's more of what a dominance type thing. Yeah I'm remote that's the type of thing where they are not really that their eyesight is an incredibly greats in the seam movement don't just jump on it and that's bull frogs are known for that don't delete and Billy to the bull frog so they cannibalize. But you know that's food in there they're they're feeding. But but there were instances they have that really didn't have much to do with that there are. There are for example lots fighters that will love ladies thanks cultural picnics and and and some other. Like scorpions is well for the ladies thanks in the exit never gonna hatch and they they're doled out like kids' meals to the young. And when they run out there's this great spider that. Once that. Once the tropic extra run out there and the babies are a growing in this no more food. She's just gonna congress down she taps on pearl on on the web to draw the babies to her and she's just. While allows them to feed on pertinent and bigamy a lot of it. She'd dies I'm the minute they runoff and then and have grown a bit more and carry on with the lots. So do I thought that's right. Yes so so the the mother quote unquote spider. Sacrifices herself to feed the young. Absolutely and it happens with smaller or the like that that happens and that's the reason more India. You know you hear about a premium to assess that it's it's not necessarily that it's a male and female its. That aside that's a lot to do cannibals from the small get beaten. And that's you see that across the board. But with the praying mantis has the mail is not only giving. Some of the male mates with the with the female and male maid of course and and then them. Sometimes the middle gets a tad bit north and and eaten. And and really what he's done is he's passed on his sperm of the to the female. And and he's given a meal to sort of ensure that she's gonna be healthy enough to have so lay eggs and and and had his kids. It's amazing and I think to you started this part of our discussion saying that these commonly. Recognized cannibals well there is the praying mantis of black widow spider. Are nearly as notorious as some of these others and other examples. Absolutely I'm I mean I wouldn't use the word notorious but the but the famous examples were when you pick him apart and you look at how they would done and in the early nineteen hundreds they were in the sense. On that they were put into conditions that were not natural conditions and so. So what came out of that is this does that in the sense. Folk lore of that that all the these spiders do nothing but cannibalize each other and praying mantis is just run around eating government help which is not the case. And you've mentioned. Is somewhat of Iran reproductive. Or survival type examples of it in particularly in the insect world. From what are proud to them more aggressive types I believe there types of the species advance that'll turn on themselves. You know there's does that have to be reduced the most militaristic in a way. Yeah I mean and that's in that group and we get into human cannibalism. Cannibalism that is used to terrorize and and and certainly. On if Europe warm weather another group. No I'm not sure that's the same species are not arm but if you're killing these other individuals and then more and not even. Interest and rights to take a break and we come back we're gonna get into more of this is a lot to talk about yet with doctor bill shut again the book is cannibalism a perfectly natural history. You listen Jason engine. Beyond you know the media were going to open phone line soon. Beginning next. Our 8446877669. Is a telephone number if you wanna join our discussion our guest tonight doctor bill showed he's an author researcher teacher lecturer. The whole buchert hats that he wears is website is bill shut dot com. Shut is spelled SCH UTT and the book we're talking about tonight is cannibalism a perfectly natural history and they'll have got to say that that. Title indicates that will you had said earlier in our discussion that it's cannibalism. I mean it's it's a word that has a lot of connotations they aren't all necessarily. True or accurate. Exactly like. Yet you know one of the things like satellite editor human cannibalism is really that culture is king and it depends on what. Cultural group you belong to what your feelings are about cannibalism and in the west here. For thousands of years now since the ancient Greeks we've been good at learning that cannibalism is the worst thing that you can possibly do that's just not that. In the world there are other cultures that did not get that message. You know and so. So they have a there are other ideas about cannibalism plus I'm not really fascinated. Yeah and we'll get into the human. Component of this in the next hour I wanna go back to the animal kingdom would have been anybody here had hamsters are drew bulls are probably mice as well I don't even know. I know I intervals as a kid and if they reproduced. If you didn't get the young ones out of there in a hurry they would be eaten what does that mean that seems like an evolutionary dead end. Yeah I think the reason that's happening this because of it you know you that this that the tent camps since for example are and I talk about those in the book. If you were to do is throwing something that was the exact opposite of of the way a hamster would lose it and then being in the Middle East for example you know these are animals have probably come out for. 25 minutes half an hour a day otherwise they're under the ground there really solitary and lost their mating. And now you're putting them into these two dealer tanks with. You know people gawking at them they're handling them. And it is just a really stressful conditions and then I'll meet the young in a real that they may young. Arm and so all of these stresses add up to abnormal behavior in the and so in those instances. You'll get stuck in the hint there's dribbles. The world will in the sense freaked out and and just to keep their their kids because it is. They are around there's so stressed in the and so you can always tell kids you know. Don't handle you don't wanna handle these animals were and what women have babies before they have babies you don't wanna touched the Davies. Or that just increases the chances that something really nasty is gonna happen. Well my in my daughter when my daughters actually works at a vet hospital and they just had the situation with a rabbit where we're at the rabbit had babies and and the babies were all over the place somebody brought the men. And they put the babies and in the in the media the cage with with the yeah mother rabbit. And next thing you know she's eating the baby so. Just a completely unnatural situation. You and and that's so that's that's really stress related. Is that is that a defense mechanism and always it is at the mother saying that that these babies all survives because didn't it's a foreign foreign environment even to the mother and. I mean I think that there were instances where where when rodents. So they consume their young it has to do if you know there aren't enough nipple solar or one of them is weak or or what and arm. Or she is stressed out people should just give birth to a letter not long ago social I think that they are natural reasons but for the most part it's. It's so what we're seeing with our taxes is just you putting these animals and have. It's a very unnatural situations like a key action and all of a sudden everyone's looking at you and worried about it. You know worried about these babies and and and it turns into just stressed out extremely scared animal. And that turns and abnormal behavior in the since themselves. On. Some and I'm fairly sure that's what most well most of horror stories that that we hear about. You have these campuses and all the sudden bang you're getting. That it did just on him they're being kept in our natural conditions. And and and make it kind of looks neat to have habit trail or whatever but. In reality it's. It is not anything close to what these animals would be living and they were out in the wild. So is there any truth behind is though that human touch the smell of a human on. These animals is what brings the parental figure in. And it's June to end up eating the. That's part of it I mean he certainly but that this is I mean this really a litany of things you're doing here that are unnatural and handling that is certainly one and you know we are who we are importing this kind of sent on to them and that that's some natural and such as it just turns into a major stressed out situation for the for the mother and I and and she reacts it would abnormal behavior. And you had mentioned earlier and in the case of fraud for example their eyesight is not very good they see movement they've they think meal and they whether it's another frog in hot the same thing with fish because again having truck to tropical fish is a kid number breeding them and if you didn't separated right way they are all they were all meals. Yet there's no individual recognition. When something. It was a thousand Torrance small than it would be that's an adult there's no recognition purposes might they be. That you know we're that's that's a problem that that that we have this with is that we give these human qualities to animals that are that that are not human and I don't think like that. And and so we get into trouble when we. You know when we impart these human qualities and so are to animals and that that's certainly an example of it. Are we're talking with doctor bill shut again his book is called cannibalism a perfectly natural history has several other books to his credit well as well you can see the mall listed. And bill shut. Dot com we encourage you to visit the website don't forget tomorrow night is a best of program. And then Monday Jason Hanson former CIA officer will be coming in to talk about what survivalist things a lot of really interesting topic is coming up Monday night. Who can afford that if you haven't yet made Chia head over to FaceBook dot com slash beyond reality radio and like FaceBook page forest. Then had to be under reality radio dot com reach its final list of stations we are on all across the country and also download the free iPhone and android app. Which allies adolescent life touchpad shows during online chat more. Or any time you're on the computer just click the listen live button right at beyond reality radio dot com's upper right hand corner. And he'll listen rates the website while hanging out and Jeremy GG myself I agree community of people. Yet we also have to take a second here and just recognize new members of the beyond reality radio affiliate list WA GH FM 106 point five in Mobile, Alabama welcome to the Stanley and eighteen BL AM 1050. In Albuquerque, New Mexico. Again welcome to be beyond reality radio fan we were happy to see this family growing. Yes and where you get a bunch new in new stations that are becoming on board relatively soon as well so. If we're not airing in your in your area in your state. Chances are it's going to be happening so yeah one more thing a disorder the reminder again our guests from the other night Rebecca Foster is going to be holding a YouTube. Reading session it's kind of mini me gallery reading and emotions get to everybody on the program herb during the during her the the reading itself. But it's going to be Friday night. 9 PM central. And Eminem anxiously Teddy posts a link again if anybody wants to join that session she does really good job of those sessions and she'll be doing and again tomorrow night 9 PM central. Our phone numbers 8446877669. Game toll free 8844. 6877669. You've got a question for our guest doctor bill shoot. Or anything on cannibals and give us show you listen Jason G. DB owner really reveal. It's Thursday on the West Coast Friday. Stops him. Myself chasing cars and always awesome and chief each there is a new product that's being tested that I think is pretty interesting by the way welcome to assure everybody doctor bill shutters or guest we're gonna bring him back in in just a moment but I'm I'm curious about this new product it's going to be testing it's a bill. That you obviously Tate and eight make your blood poisonous. To. Mosquitoes. Get it. And now the sad part about it is they have to bite you before they get the blood so you're you're gonna get bitten but once they do they will die this is a it's a an high dosage of aid and medicine and it's called. I ever met did and it's used to fight parasites. Things that cause like Elton Titus or malaria by the things like that but the the medication if it's. In a high enough dose in his in your bloodstream apparently will kill mosquitoes. And their testing various versions of this to see fit to may be effective in cutting down the mosquito population and a they told you one time that way ranked. Well yeah I. I mean it thinness and and retirement any major sign of extra while they haven't they haven't not gotten that far yet but rate now this medication has been used since the eighties. To a combat a number of different to infectious parasites. And again things that cause like Elton Titus or river blindness. And it's been it's obviously very effective in that I can use and now they think could be effective against mosquitoes. Mosquitoes aren't the worst thing that god ever which is exactly the mosquitoes and ticks I mean those two things strategist. I don't know why they exist and I shouldn't and I think we're gonna have a chance to talk with a guest about those two things because one of his books is called blood feeding creatures and both mosquitoes antics are such things so will will be able to talk about that. Yes animals Bernard aspect can doctor bill shut and I got to apologize to Islam went to break I said shoot and ice and I said that currently being terrified let's not be hurt worse well I know put all you have trust mad and I got the last name cause HE WES I've heard worse I don't. Think so but I said -- via a year earlier as we do I get the name down no problem it's and a fine and of course we go to break and I Sarah. Somewhat. You're welcome to change your lesson to Johnson it's pretty simple government knows about a pronounces releasing to scope I don't know I welcome to my family any time. Hey we welcome back to the program builds great to have you here your website is bill shut dot com the book we've been talking about is cannibalism a perfectly natural history and I think it's time to. Turn this discussion to the human form of Canon cannibalism and or my questions when it comes to just cannibalism as a definition. Is is there a difference in how it's perceived based on the consciousness based on the fact that your conscience conscious. Of what you're doing in other words we as humans. You know recognize were we doing a fish. Eating its young probably does and as you said has no idea can even tell the difference between bad and it and another speck of food somewhere so where does that intent. Come into this discussion. I'd just a I think it depends from a culture you know there are certain cultures where Klecko western culture. Where are cannibalism is really now arguably the worst taboo that you could then that you could possibly conceive of there are other cultures with that is just not the case where for example when anthropologists went into Brazil. And met this group called the war and the worry we're just is mortified to learn that the westerners were burying their dead as as soon as the anthropologist will learn. Will work to learn that that the water while they were eating there is so it's all a matter of what you're taught is right and and could talk that it's that it's a secret ritual to better do it should not bury your debt to eat them and then then you don't have these problems. So so and I and I found that could be one of the most interest in things. Riding the spoke was to look at how that western taboo developed but. The part answered your question but. There but but I think that that you know would hit its all a matter of what you're taught. Well and I think that's very important it's it's how we year. How are you grew up how are you what you were taught from when you were born. Sue and you know we are now on what you should be eating what you shouldn't be eating what's gross what's not crows yeah and I. Salute Leno you know we really calmed you know we looked down on people would be different things. And and you think you need look back to some of that so sort of terminology in the oldest of the French used to be frogs because they'd frogs. So you know we have a we have a habit at the spokesperson for very picky about we have what we eat in the western and down so I think that probably try to into the taboo. But yeah. It's so it's a way to sort of marginalize. People sit in on the there'd be other local what they eat too. Well I think that's important if you're brought up your entire life thinking that. Allen and somebody pass away game we you know am I mean that villages being normal things you appoint. Oh. So let's start talking about it since because it's you know they're different forms. Kyrgyzstan forms and certainly the motivations for cannibalism immigrant population and you know some of them are just survival let's. Talk about this a fascinating about the Donner party I'm assuming everybody knows the story of the Donner party but let's not assume that tell us the story. Well Madonna's world group of pioneers who sent out from. Arm from a Missouri in the 1847. And they left late and they they they probably made the worst wrong turn. And the worst directions in the history of directions. So they wound up arm. They both went that's hitting the Rockies. And the Sierra Nevada about a month later than they really wanted to do and that and they really needed to get across these mountain passes. Before better than this nose came. And and so on to make a long story short. The night before they were gonna cross over the steps to get in the downhill was. Become Sacramento years later. Well but but it gets stuck in in improbably that's no way this place in the United States and and they didn't happen. Guides there that told marvel we need to back down and go that low lands so that they hunkered down in. In the mountains and it was really the worst thing that they can dip. Sort of the next. For five months. They know what that they were rescue parties that came up to get in the work force separate rescue parties but by time elapsed rescue parties were pulling people out there. There was cannibalism going on end and cannibalism actually had taken place. Ford different times. Well in in fourth place this summer when I'm when it started to look at accessible. This is such a famous example does that not going to be anything for me to cover its effect on our wrote a book and arrows start banquet about about blood feeders. The dribble I'm really not to do much from mosquitoes because so much you really need. In so many books have been written. And and I thought that's an Adonis and it just wasn't the case sub roundup. Going out and and and working with human remains detecting dogs and and this was. This was the group of dogs that they used to find the remains of on the million airport same docs. And and what we did was we went down into these areas where. You know we went off the trial in the sense is that there are parks there that that a setup with memorial to the daughters. And they've been died have been taking people there for 100 years. And and all the sudden wrought this trail in word we're tracking down a meadow and and these dogs are alerting them and now. Come to find that that this is where they think some of the bodies to and including George Dunne and the leader of the not a party were buried and this is brand new information. And so and so that that that to me was just in the wild that that. That this kind of new info was out there then there was a hole. Then there was a whole big thing that that developed about the fact that the men in the media that the daughters didn't move didn't cannibalize. And so I went really what is that true and that should know that this is sun that the media has taken a story and blown out of proportion. That was a report that came out of college or researcher was doing some work and they misinterpreted it. And now every question that that these people get from that and from. You know from any audience with her in front of the goal which starts with the two daughters really with a thick cannibalized and now once more tonight elect that gets and so and to the public mindset and an immediate steps to shake. You had said. Four different times would what do you mean by that. Fortitude place's. That during the rescue. On and that two different camps to Donna have. There were four different rescues during through two of them. They get caught up in the mountains going back down with people but they pulled out of there. Arm and that was cannibalism and then there were two separate camps of donors and there was cannibalism that both of the camps. All the creepy in one and now and doctor lake be in the other. Do we know the extent of the cannibalism I mean how many of their fellow travelers to the end of consuming. Well that and here's the other thing that's underpinned a great question is that I've wondered why 80% of the male. Died and and an 80% of female survived and and when there's such a support for but you look at it today using sort of science of what was going on in the the field physiological differences between. Male and female and you see why that happened. Armed so they lost about forty people and and many of them weren't were men who had. Burned through their fat stores that in the really quickly whereas you know have more sept detainees that. So they survived longer their metabolism was a bit who was a bit lower than the men else so they didn't. Require as much energy arm and the mail did the met the man did the bull work cutting troop. Forests that the world that cutting trails to get these wagons through and trying to get stranded there were exhausted. So they died first. That's like the first six people but the piper the little man. On and that and most of the women survive. But that was something that you could look at nowadays it's if that in a very different light and while I was just quirky thing when the white. Men died. Where is there any. Can temper reports have been after the pulled some of those folks out of their did and those folks tell the story. Yet they did. It was Rick that they told that they would they wrote it down and there was route is really. You know I came out of their brain there's absolutely no doubt at all but and it blows and took place. That at four separate sites that there was this there's no controversy among among the people who orbit Donner party experts none zero. It's as an unbelievable story but that's not the only story of survival cannibalism. What else do you don't produce well. I mean there have been Sammons across places like China and and that's it you know I would imagine at the most recent tenable to ruby in places like North Korea where. Where you have people were desperately poor with with with no food at all. And that that point you know an aunt or happens during the siege during during World War II you had. You know in in several cities in Russia that that were besieged by. But the Germans. And the people just that they wound up having consumed their dead. And so it's really the same thing here when you get down to the court whether it's the Donner party in the 1847. Or whether it's Russians and in 1941. Or rates. In the you're going in rugby team and in the seventies. Stuck in the candies when you're not the point where your body is you're not getting any food at all your body is consuming itself. So it's breaking down zone tissue. Then then. Then what kicks into gear is. It is this. It is something that he sees that it. Of course all of these instances where some people are gonna supplied by consuming the bodies because there's meat there. You can use your children can survive if you're not doing that you've completed your your kids and and they can live. And that the decisions that you can only make I think I've come to this conclusion. When you're in that situation. You know this. I was gonna call in show and one of the questions was that was you know do you think that you would. Cannibalize windows if you were in that situation. So I just shook my head when that one. When the host asked that question because I've spent a settlement for the just are never gonna know until your insinuation. As you could say yes or no but. But I don't think he'd be able to eventually wither. There's a whole bunch of survival instincts that they've come to the surface that you don't even know exist and again in that situation Eric we have to take a break how come back more with doctor bill shut on yeah. Jason. Guest tonight doctor. Good shot her talking about cannibalism and this is kind of a short segment bill but I wanted to bring up something and I mentioned the very beginning of the show and I'm a Catholic. And we talked about the taboo. Element of cannibalism in western civilization begin yet the Catholic Church in their communion process and this may be rural stretch but is it curious to me. You know there's a bit of an overtone of cannibalism in that process. Yeah now I talked about that in the book as well that you know if you think of out of consuming the host and a you know what's so we're talking about oh about communion now of course. Armed. There it. You know back in the old days the that would mean there was a symbolism involved and and if you talked to really strict Catholics today there's still no symbolism you are actually. Consuming the body of that and blood of Jesus Christ there's no. In other than that if it's on it's something that they're good they're really strict Weston and in our ran until. A little bit of flak from the cup a couple of people who arm who jumped on me for for for. A bomb. Tying that into cannibalism but to me and it you know it it just seemed Micah that it that it was an example and certainly interesting enough to talk about. Especially given up that western taboo where is so they need your body for the resurrection and cannibalism kind of messes that up. And the and I think that that's part of the reason why that taboo. Became so strong but then again you have people who are. Who wore stating that that as big as they keep this as they eat the host and drink the wind that that they are in a sense cannibalizing. It we have a little bit less than a minute you're forced to jump back in to break is that enough time to talk about medicinal. Reason I can tell us. The total kind of blows and me was given the western taboo I was blown away by the fact that medicinal cannibalism was so prevalent for hundreds of years throughout Europe. Every body part that you can imagine. Well from blood to a factor hare said a muscle who was being used to treat some type of disease. And dip in that. The taboo that tablet that was out there that had started with the Greeks that to me it was a big big surprise when I wrote to us to find that. That extensive. And amount of medicinal cannibalism for so long. It also of folk classes of people from the kings took that to presence. I mean these are due in Egypt to a fellow with the mommy's. Yet there eight mummies that was from the missed translation Mumia was just too hard stuff that they used to that took took on that there were loose and the the English who missed translated that that a radian word. But that they were talking about real mommy's just having medicinal value when they might end up bringing them home grown in a mop and no it was sold them on there in the Merck catalog into the nineteen hundreds. Mom's mom territory to take a break other phone numbers 8446877669. Until freed 844. 6877669. And and you and Jimmie is doing this whole thing where he's. Run in different music. Yeah I heard it was bumper music doesn't seem through the bumper music and when we get toward the end of the program and open up the phone mine specifically for that can wait giveaway shirt the first person come up with a parity notice I assure you think they'll be you don't get a shot her average pressure on me to Paris and you listen to Jason JV on the. I'm really revealed the cast of. There's a disease that's as. Big guns but I was going to. We have had in the room since the fifteen day went well. And just a week where you can't vote oh. Some chips swung and restaurants. And unplugged again today and I'm going fast and obviously but some of your mind. Save battery but again today. Isn't just. It's just that why we didn't. Adultery Jones both. Certainly it's okay. Don't want to know. You go ahead Arlen. And also sales and tell him it's not just that. It's not. Well you know different. Yes yes I think that what's on the quality putts I'm like digitally. I believe it is a well what I feel remotely Johnson emotional extremely pretty but. It. What are those who want to Jones and then use that could be my today. And that would make fun of the captain Bob Dudley president Johnson cold. This. Welcome back to be on reality radio if anybody recognizes that from Monty Python it's called the British navy cannibalism sketch at the repair our current favorite or hurt his leg kind of puts a little bit of tongue in cheek fun in toward discussions and I were talking about cannibalism with doctor bill. Shut his book is called cannibalism a perfectly natural. History and we duke briefly touched on the medicinal. Motivations for human cannibalism bill but I have to ask you. You know been during the Middle Ages. If you wanna call it medicine. And it was it was a lot of kind of time. You hit or miss and superstition and bleaching in the Sanyo and I think but are there any real. On substantive reasons for cannibalism in medicine was did any of that have any. Basis in science. You know I could not find are really couldn't find anybody you know they were coughing blood and art and growing you up bones maybe get some calcium out of that but but I just. And it didn't make sense to me and and and that's committee is in there were two big surprises and I wrote this problem was how. Prevalent it was across the animal kingdom for these reasons and and and the the human. The thing that blew me away with humans was. Four for. In the different given this question taboo. Not and it wasn't just the middle agents who talked about for the Renaissance and and right up into the nineteen hundreds. Body parts were eaten. And and I and in out. The last vestiges of that that art today or or or are people who believe that by consuming the placenta as they're going to get out on they're going to get health benefit from that and so. So what is fascinated by that and and and looked into that and and and that turned out to be one of the best stories of the old books. Going down the Plano Texas. When I have no idea that I was going to be making a trip like that. Two. Actually consumed. Someone's placenta. And then you know that was that was wild you know and I and I think it's completely placebo the woman admitted that herself should accept her clients are. For the most part there's there's no real medicinal value out of it but they think that there is so they're so and so the placebo effects were strong. Well not in your talked about and different and and medicinal purposes but right here RI a musher you've heard about your book but we had the so called mercy brown that people follow as a V empire. And me she was she was dugout they remove her heart her liver burned about Iraq next time next cemetery in and put it in super tight. Stuff for her brother to drink thinking that that was going to cure him he's he ended up dying in as well but. Well let's complex like closest to me you know that and that but for the types of things and try to stay away from where you're just just like this than in others there's a degree of of from of craziness going on Erin. And that a lot of been written about stuff like that and I just tried to avoid it must sound but there was so much more interest in things and then going back and recession Jeffrey Dahmer or. And it. You know. The Japanese guy who went up to in that coed and and and consuming her I was just. Now some of these people there. Victims' families are alive I'm not gonna write a book where I'm. You know glorifying these guys who might still have some of the Bristol lives are gonna read different and the mountain you know gets some satisfaction from that and just refused to do it. Right he we've got a few people on holder let's see if we are free to take Lisa one of these calls this is Ed calling in from Wilkes-Barre Pennsylvania he had welcomed the show. Thanks so much for taking my call great children but you. Can I afford to build a program occasionally called secrets of the dead. And who once Spector did his thing on Jones not shown sound on sound down sound of the Massachusetts whoever was one of the first early settlements. Unchanged. I'm sorry James. Give go to games all of okay they have. Somalia saw the sabres had built on kind of look makeshift fort. And they. The closure end at any rate because the end they fell out of favor with the unions they don't want it done any help from the Indian food. And eventually did times got really hardening and the foreground now and they and they determine from the phone they go look you know you. That is to cut marks on the bones. From the history that happened at that have survived those cut marks on bone full or. They determine that it was caliber of cannibalism going on. Yeah that's another example of that type of thought survival cannibalism. It's dead Ed thanks so much for calling in and reporting that it was a Jamestown in June Jones junior was an I don't know count was at the Roanoke owning no it was first yeah Jamestown Virginia they actually found bones. Mark it's different from knives and used. Yet they reconstructed this young woman on who had Bob went cut marks on the bones. On it and now they is that they're being a little bit more picky when it before they call for the simple but it wasn't that they would if they weren't some westerners. That they'd be looking to see that those bones with the cut marks world we're sort of pop up in the same type of manner as as gain as but the bones of game. Because once again that in other cultures. You have done that as part of a funeral right. Some of these people not consuming but there but they do remove the flash. And so that type of a cup mark. Was probably misinterpreted. By anthropologists from many years. It's a symptom. Means. You know a direct correlation with an abortion we don't really think that anymore although we do believe that that can blossom did take place in Jamestown. There's really no reason to those top marks to be there. Yes or bill we're gonna run out of time here pretty quickly we we haven't touched on ritualistic cannibalism at define that forests and to give some examples. I don't know let's say if ritualistic cannibalism. So. Which are. Well if you think that that debt cannibalizing. Somebody has as soon as. The benefit of the that benefit is that you work taking in not that your taken in the sport the personality of somebody that you have a vested in battle. Or you are consuming a part of of the dead relatives. Because they had good qualities but those are examples of of of ritual cannibalism. Others have to do with funeral rites not consider. That should be the main type of ritual cannibalism where you are. Our instead of buried near you're dead you war are you consuming them and could you reader trying to get rid of them off. Simmons to the depth that that there's nothing left of them here on the on the your point you wore you all are. In incorporating loved ones and yourself. Well they're south American tribes that used to do that for. While they wanna battle against somebody who were saying they would do they would. Eat there and the person that the total life father as as a belief that they were taking in that person's power up that person's abilities and it was news strengthening. Moved wanted to know some of those that there's some of those examples have been proven to be not true so Captain Cook for example was thought to have been cannibalized. Not true and if they cut them up and brought his body parts back to the ship after the he was killed. But he was not even from what I've from everything I've read and what are consumed. That the groups supported that that the truck that brought him back to the ship when it's habitually eat them they were like what that would mean we don't eat it anybody's. But that's gone down this this sort of draw on no story that that is repeated and repeated so it becomes true you know. Let's go to our listener line to bring in John from Florida hey John welcome to the show. Thank you armed IE or starting an apology and we're not. Section Internet world as a he's younger. Outcast. For us all. A cure and eat. You know ET we're. OK so you're asking us if so it's what doctors shut us heard of that is a question yeah yeah have you heard anybody guerrillas doing this bill. No. Well I mean cannibalism primate is rare. And it it'd happen from time to time and it probably will happen a bit more this since we are. Really contingent on their ranges and there is stress and competition for food. But but it's pretty reverend climates. Thanks for the call John we appreciated. We only have a couple minutes left and I want to move to your other book what are the other books says we've kind of referenced here tonight and that's the book about blood for user feeders it's called dark banquet blood and the curious lies. Of blood feeding creatures know we all know. You know mosquitoes ticks are a lot of insects that will bite and they they bite to feed on human or animal blood. But if we move up the the chain of the animal Cheney get in some more sophisticated animals is vampire bats what are the types of creatures are blood feeders. Well chicks but you mentioned before mosquitoes. Arm and even you know with it if you think about it. It's so widespread resource it's all over the world and it and and what fascinated and doubted is that. Animals from from from these tiny little things like like mosquitoes or ticks right up to them apart bats which are the largest. Animal that feeds solely on blood they'll ship these kind of these characteristics that allowed on the feed on blood they're all pretty small they'll have really short piece. They'll put it like like you once in the saliva to keep their the blood from from clotting other really still see and Tom. That he's you know they're there they're not a hung up creatures that do it. But admit there are certainly enough in itself it's a tough way to make a living but but it didn't know him. Not a bad job you can get it is it is the way I think of. So who is we get out of the insect community them are there any creatures that feed in or prefer or feed on human blood. Well I mean if it if you rent a situation where people sleeping out in the and they know these have that now these poor people are directly in the woods and then them template about sulfide and you know. But this you know I don't think that they prefer. And they've been thinking that sort of prefers human blood. But. So in places where they don't have screens are people asleep announced on that don't get that. And that's problematic because they can carry rabies and but I don't think that it does think that I don't think there's any creature that sort of par four actually feeds on that except an excerpt. Our our will feed on on several different. Prey items the speed on on. Dogs so they'll feed on. Deer and then they'll feed on us as well but it but I don't think there's any connection strictly feed on human blood. I don't wanna vampire bats prefer cattle and and other animals and you know things of that nature. Yeah and and they were at the populations were really small until we brought in them. Thousands and thousands of heads of cattle and that's supports larger population to vampires and before you know it you understand part that explosion. And that's really human is that it's our fault for doing it. And then there are three of them maybe get 15100 species of bats and only three of them part that's that's something that. In those people are those in those vampire bats feed solely on blood that's such a sort. And then what about things like leeches are mean that's a blood teetering. Absolutely yes I mean and and we're using them now it is stood to arm. To isolate bill. That the clotting you know the anti clotting factors in their saliva arm are now working wonders in this that this forest Madison doses. As stroke prevent or support to break up clots that are already there. So those alchemist they used Leach's back in the Middle Ages and head to head. They had something right there for some Modesto quality aren't you using it for the wrong reasons. If every if that's right that that they were using that to draw off blood because they thought that you know by lowering the levels of blood if they do if they what you blue then then then that was a good thing. Now end up. In at George Washington was led the definite sense for a hit a sore throat and and that they bought him probably 40% of the blood in the last state that you have. You know. We didn't have it about X and we didn't know. And this is so committed to ending question in my car what are they gonna come down to it. Tell us why this. How these guys met stopped state that the public blunt amendment I read at the dislike well you know. These guys made a lot of mistakes they should applaud him close to do was console so they should wrap this beaten bags of salt and like. They just did not know back then. On you have what those lamp pray. Or whatever actor called. Yes I am proud that we're feeding there that's questioned their tutor just grinding noise come elected took an all in just. Groin to the dented the side of a vicious body that's been you're gonna get some blood but you're getting tissue as well where is leeches are just strictly blood mosquitoes blood. Vampire bats to explode. They built were out of time thank you so much for being with this fascinating topic to baucus calls cannibalism a perfectly natural history and that book in your other books are all available on your website right. Yeah you can get a mall on Amazon I just have they got fed Ed talk that just came out on the odd it's the second newest one on non on cannibalism in the animal kingdom and animals and just came in paperback so I'm appear formulas missile grown rabbit. Well bill thanks so much for coming and going and Alan Smith before talking I don't have a great nine. Our will be right back to wrap things up don't forget we're gonna start open up the phone lines now for the bumper music commonality the thread it's throw the modern music tonight gives calls you think you know what it is we teacher on the line parity. 446877669. Until 34468776. X yeah. Yeah. Personal ads. Her plan throughout the course of the nine years and is a common thread in them we've got a bunch people maligned I think it's pretty easy so I have a feeling that it's gonna go real quick here so. Let's do was say here. A C the first let's go to Zachary calling from Missouri Hayes at Krewell combined to be on reality radio. I renown and great good on the show what do you think the common seamless. That sounds like maybe something Jesus would have burnout to just parents flying. There. New entrusting perspective that's not overlook before but I like the way you think in there thanks for calling and let's go to. Linda in New York you Linda welcome to the show. Can eat curry is. It. It right running out of China re pretty much right around the leg gas. And get a minute to run at bat so I go runs. Yeah that's it right there there there the word Enron was in the title of all the songs so he got that one thanks so much for listening and calling in and thinks everybody who called in for that idea I knew it was gonna go quickly to do this little more often we're gonna make a little more complicated little little more standalone in the we have to get your mission yet I just got to thank him very very much don't go anywhere. OK so yes it was a simple that was an easy one tonight ten. But Jackson Friday means he's really looking in to use the indeed there's going deeper team we win or at that's Mario now politically if that -- to start in the sovereign debt that's too complicated for us think about it was a tomorrow night at best a program Monday night we've got Jason Hanson joining us he's a former CIA officer a lot of great topic to be talking about with him. If you haven't yet had over to FaceBook dot com. Dot com slash beyond reality radio like FaceBook page for us. Then head to beyond and beyond reality radio dot com where you find all the stations we are on across the country. In also download the free iPhone an injury temperate parent. That alone should listen life catch past shows join me online chat and more. Or just click to listen live button in the operate in corner of the website and listen libel joining TV myself agree community of people in online chat. While listening to show. 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